tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post4521284055121205920..comments2024-03-22T19:07:21.790+00:00Comments on The Wertzone: A Defence of Dragons, Part 2Adam Whiteheadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11383677312079611311noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-58423037021456952022009-04-23T22:30:00.000+00:002009-04-23T22:30:00.000+00:00Hypothetical Update from GRRM if he had continued ...Hypothetical Update from GRRM if he had continued posting updates (compeltly fictional content and speculatuive in nature.)<br /><br />"Been feeling very depressed lately, haven't written anything because being constantly reminded that the book I am writing is not out many many years after i said it would be... as if I didn't know... Don't feel motivated to write, maybe I will go out for a bit to clear my head and write after."<br /><br />[some time later]<br /><br />"Got back and felt a bit better, but then saw 999,999,999,999,999,999 emails and posts copmplaining about me taking time out to clear my head and not writing. Feel depressed again... maybe I will sleep." <br /><br /><br />The anti-fans should jsut go jump off a cliff or something.. I eman the book and the series will eb finished when they are finished, not before... I am one who hopes he doesn't sacrifice his own quality for the minority of dickheads who wail and gnash their teeth mightily over their idioticies. Also if he does die before he finishes, then that is jsut a tragedy we will have to deal with, nothing we can do about it. I mean he could be 20 and then get hit by a bus tomorrow and it would be the same.Hiroshi Satohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09574412649341121591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-51309481774319869342009-02-15T07:21:00.000+00:002009-02-15T07:21:00.000+00:00It may very well be age which has slowed him down....It may very well be age which has slowed him down. If GRRM is approx. 60, then pictures of him show a man who has aged considerably more than that.<BR/>I have a friend who had some contact w/ him and his partner in Santa Fe, NM in the early '80's, and I was told that they 'partied' pretty hard.<BR/>I would be somewhat concerned about his durability. I sure hope he finishes the series, but as has been previously remarked, what he produced in the first 3 books is epic in and of itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-15705755002171284842009-02-12T13:05:00.000+00:002009-02-12T13:05:00.000+00:00I would agree that the update situation could be h...I would agree that the update situation could be handled differently. The problem is that GRRM has made lots of updates in the past, given dates, not him them, and now feels reluctant to do the same thing again.<BR/><BR/>The reason for this is probably due to a faulty perception of the Internet that a lot of people in the online SF community suffer from. The publishers I have spoken to all seem to agree that the people who post things on message boards and form the online SF community are a tiny minority - between 5 and 10% - of the total numbers of people who actually read books. Of that grouping, the number of people who are actually complaining enthusiastically about the series are again a tiny minority. And as I have said, there plenty of new fans joining the online discussions almost daily who have no idea about what has come before and are being hit by a wall of negativity when they ask a reasonable question.<BR/><BR/>So I would say that the 'antis', although very vocal, represent such a tiny minority of people who read the books that their comments shouldn't be taken to heart by GRRM, leaving the majority of fans and even casual readers bereft of information. But clearly he has made that choice and isn't going to be dissuaded from it.Adam Whiteheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11383677312079611311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-9629275717992367302009-02-08T07:42:00.000+00:002009-02-08T07:42:00.000+00:00"GRRM would have kept on with the updates but cert..."GRRM would have kept on with the updates but certain commentators made that impossible, so they only have themselves to blame."<BR/><BR/>While your "Defense" posts have put some things into perspective for me (I was actually in the process of trying to piece everything together myself- thank you for that), I must say that "impossible" is not an appropriate description.<BR/><BR/>He could've disabled any comments to his updates (which he did).<BR/><BR/>He could've chosen to ignore the naysayers, and continue to update despite them. <BR/><BR/>He could have even shortened any progress reports to "felt sick last week, didn't write. Finished a chapter this week". <BR/><BR/>He could have shown some respect for the majority of fans who did not defame him and posted something since January of 2008 on his update page.<BR/><BR/>Further updates, in some form, were and are still quite possible.<BR/><BR/>Instead, he gave in to the vocal minority (no matter how numerous they may have seemed).<BR/><BR/>And now those of us who are semi-patiently waiting have nothing except constantly pushed-back Amazon pre-order dates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-89807118002268155592009-02-06T13:23:00.000+00:002009-02-06T13:23:00.000+00:00Some good points, even if we lack a critical persp...Some good points, even if we lack a critical perspectiv:<BR/><BR/>Martin has no obligation to finish the series, he gave us three good books and a Jordan-esque fourth book. We should be pleased and content with that. If he wants to stop writing, he should do that.<BR/><BR/>1. The fault lies mainly among the common fact that most fantasy authors have too-young-a-characters, had everybody been 5 years older, much would have been easier to deal with.<BR/><BR/>2. Feast shouldn't have been written, the only reason I read it was that it was in the ASoIaD-world but it has signs of many of the problems Jordan runned into. Ofc, as the die-hard Jordan-fans couldn't see this, it's perfectly natural that the same applies to those who are die-hard Martin-fans. We're all human.<BR/><BR/>3. I find it quite naive to think that HBO would actually make 7 seasons, 3 at the most is my bet. The odds for more is astronomical. If one think anything else you let your love for the books blind you. Of course, if the series is HBO:s biggest hit ever it might happen, but otherwise? Not likely...<BR/><BR/>I'm happy if Martin gives us Dance and that's it. The first three books are great and he shouldn't sacrifice his well-being just because idiots says so. I think it would be nice if he let the series rest after that. The War of the Five Kings was always the most interesting anyways.ErrantBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03932796866393461469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-22192992539458422952009-02-05T12:04:00.000+00:002009-02-05T12:04:00.000+00:00While I dislike anonymous commenters in general, I...While I dislike anonymous commenters in general, I have to agree to the one above me and Keith. You are very defensive of Mr. Martin, and while I see no proper reason for hate postings because he fails so blatantly to deliver, there is really no point in trying to explain why he needs so much time and still is not finished.<BR/><BR/>To put it bluntly, you made good points which still do not explain why he needs so damn long to finish the next book.<BR/><BR/>Martin does not want to post updates because he cannot deal with a lot of annoyed fans? The evil "antis" ruin the series and cause the delays in the end, too?<BR/><BR/>Did Martin say this? Did you say this? Whoever said this, come on.<BR/><BR/>People change over longer periods of time. My perception of the series changes, Martin changes, the whole world changes.<BR/><BR/>As I love the series, I really fear he dies before it is finished and that the quality in the end does not justify such a long wait.<BR/><BR/>The planned TV series gives me some hope that he might get back to work.<BR/><BR/>Where is the enthusiasm? If he tried to perfectionize "A Feast for Crows", I really did not notice it, I rather felt disappointed, especially after the long wait.<BR/><BR/>No wonder people get angry. Fanboys and "Antis" alike probably share the sentiment that this development is a tragedy! :(Longaschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14315739202508784897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-14514849461749616612009-02-05T10:32:00.000+00:002009-02-05T10:32:00.000+00:00The really funny thing is that you claim to be obj...The really funny thing is that you claim to be objectiv, while your opinion is clearly clouded by your personal sympathy for the man. There are always two sides of a coin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-32581456766145997072009-02-04T01:58:00.000+00:002009-02-04T01:58:00.000+00:00Actually I think it is fitting the shoe is on the ...Actually I think it is fitting the shoe is on the other foot. For the last year or so the 'antis' have been allowed to run riot with their inaccurate, ill-informed and plain wrong observations, so people getting fed up with it and coming back at them is somewhat overdue.<BR/><BR/>No-one (least of all the author himself) is saying GRRM isn't significantly late, that some bad calls haven't been made and that some over-optimistic release dates have been given that shouldn't have been. But at some point you have to move on. GRRM would have kept on with the updates but certain commentators made that impossible, so they only have themselves to blame.Adam Whiteheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11383677312079611311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-11738719857869517022009-02-02T14:30:00.000+00:002009-02-02T14:30:00.000+00:00This whole thing has reached farcical proportions....This whole thing has reached farcical proportions. First, GRRM refuses to comment on the status of ADWD anymore. Then the website he is most affiliated with bans discussion of the release date. Now we're getting full-fledged articles in his "defense". <BR/><BR/>And now I read on his website, where he can't even get a calendar (perhaps the most time-sensitive of publications) out the door on time. Oh, I know...he's not directly responsible for shipping the calendar...but still, the irony is downright comical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-3042473755825346602009-01-31T01:06:00.000+00:002009-01-31T01:06:00.000+00:00'You should really try to avoid using 'whilst' so ...'You should really try to avoid using 'whilst' so often, it's a pretty terrible word. 'While' works quite well.'<BR/><BR/>Oh for Christ's sake; Adam used it 4 times in over 1850 words, is that really particularly excessive?<BR/><BR/>Very good article, and quite illuminating.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-41335390784719105872009-01-31T00:28:00.000+00:002009-01-31T00:28:00.000+00:00What's wrong with Whilst? It's a perfectly perfect...What's wrong with Whilst? It's a perfectly perfect word :pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-78663382367525264132009-01-30T22:12:00.000+00:002009-01-30T22:12:00.000+00:00"That have't even been written yet?"GRRM did say h..."That have't even been written yet?"<BR/><BR/>GRRM did say he was working on a Sansa chapter a while back, and she is one of the characters who wasn't supposed to be in Book 5, so there has been some speculation that GRRM may have done some preliminary work on Book 6 as well. It is more likely that she has simply been moved into Book 5.<BR/><BR/>"Dance with Dragons aside, is there a serious concern about the series itself being completed? Slightly morbid territory, but Mr. Martin must be in his 60s or 70s, and if it takes him years to write each book...I mean, do the math..."<BR/><BR/>It has been said before, but it doesn't mean much. Whilst GRRM turned 60 a few months ago, his favourite author Jack Vance completed his last novel three years ago at the age of 90 and Gene Wolfe is still producing new novels at 77. This is not a major concern of mine, I have to admit.<BR/><BR/>As for reading the books, I'd say go for it. The first three almost form a self-contained trilogy anyway (there was supposed to be a five-year gap after Book 3, so there's no cliffhanger with the character's life left in the balance, as there is at the end of Book 4).Adam Whiteheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11383677312079611311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-55385694150164285052009-01-30T22:03:00.000+00:002009-01-30T22:03:00.000+00:00You should really try to avoid using 'whilst' so o...You should really try to avoid using 'whilst' so often, it's a pretty terrible word. 'While' works quite well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-73889634110273981742009-01-30T21:44:00.000+00:002009-01-30T21:44:00.000+00:00I see no reason to delay reading the series - it i...I see no reason to delay reading the series - it is excellent and though we might wait awhile for the remaining novels thus provides an excellent excuse to go back and re-read the previous books when the new one finally is published. There are so many layers and details that you are bound to miss something in the first reading.<BR/><BR/>I just read the series a few months back - and I can't wait to re-read them. Jay Tomio on www.bookspotcentral.com is currently re-reading "A Feast for Crows" and posting his thought chapter by chapter - it's quite illuminating for me to be pointed in the direction of minor details that I didn't pick up in my first reading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-70780639580625876352009-01-30T17:56:00.000+00:002009-01-30T17:56:00.000+00:00Adam, really enjoy your site. I just got ino read...Adam, really enjoy your site. I just got ino reading sci-fi/fantasy in the past year or so and have been dying to read the ASOIAF books. I've sort of reluctantly decided to simply wait until the series is done, and then read the whole thing. If it is going to take years in between books, I'm afraid I won't remember all the details of the plot while I wait for each new one to come out. I can barely remember the last book I read, let alone one from 5 years ago! What do you think of this strategy for someone who has yet to begin the series?<BR/><BR/>My other question is, everyone seems so focused on this next book and the long delay, but then there are going to be, what, two more after that? That have't even been written yet? Dance with Dragons aside, is there a serious concern about the series itself being completed? Slightly morbid territory, but Mr. Martin must be in his 60s or 70s, and if it takes him years to write each book...I mean, do the math...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-16516405296547386912009-01-30T16:14:00.000+00:002009-01-30T16:14:00.000+00:00I hope GRRM doesn't sacrifice one iota of quality ...I hope GRRM doesn't sacrifice one iota of quality in exchange for expediency, even if it means we have to wait another decade for the series to finish. If the end holds up to the promise of the beginning, this is a work of art that will endure and be loved by generations long after George has passed from the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-74271128989982184142009-01-30T12:19:00.000+00:002009-01-30T12:19:00.000+00:00Great two parts analysis!Great two parts analysis!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-47086097742356512762009-01-30T04:00:00.000+00:002009-01-30T04:00:00.000+00:00Excellent posts, Adam, both this and the previous ...Excellent posts, Adam, both this and the previous one.<BR/><BR/>I'm used to waiting for books for years and I imagine most fantasy fans are as well. I can't understand the people who get angry or abusive about this. There are plenty of other books to read out there, go enjoy them while you wait.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-6668596742087469472009-01-30T01:00:00.000+00:002009-01-30T01:00:00.000+00:00Longsc, I'm not entirely sure of your point here. ...Longsc, I'm not entirely sure of your point here. It is true that Robert Jordan became gravely ill towards the end of his life, but this only affect the writing of the last book, not the ones before it and certainly not the ones that caused him the largest structural problems on the series (Books 8-10). If I had to draw a comparison I would say that whilst Jordan went blazing on regardless of the problems he had created in timelines and character arcs and this led to a large three-book tangent from where he went to be, GRRM seems to be much more aware of the similar problems that face ASoIaF and has deliberately attempted to avoid that. Or to put it more baldly, he doesn't want to put out a book that gets ripped as much as AFFC was, and I am convinced that if he had continued along the path he was with the book when the split happened, that is what would have happened.<BR/><BR/>Shawn's article linked in Part 1 addresses a central problem that GRRM has, which is the same as the one that Jordan and Tolkien had: he is a 'freewriter' who does not have a strict outline to write to but makes things up as he goes along with a general feeling of where he wants the series to go. Shawn's article suggests that this has caused a lot of the problems with AFFC and ADWD and the wait involved for them and I generally agree. When you are in Book 1 of a series you can shoot off in a random direction and see where it takes you and back up and do something different if the fancy takes you. In Book 5, with 3,000 pages of backplot behind you and maybe 2,000 more ahead, course-correcting becomes immensely more difficult and can entail significant delays.Adam Whiteheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11383677312079611311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-35996347927557220672009-01-29T23:32:00.000+00:002009-01-29T23:32:00.000+00:00Most of your article is an educated guess, but it ...Most of your article is an educated guess, but it still does not explain why this takes so long. Martin is not ill, like Jordan was for example. The series is indeed very complex and keeping up the level of the previous books is hard, for sure.<BR/><BR/>A Feast for Crows was not nearly as exciting as the previous books, if you ask me we are already in the dreaded Wheel-of-Time spiral. you say a major character is supposed to die, no wonder.<BR/><BR/>Reduction, putting together the plot, coming to an end shows that things clearly did not develop as planned, as the whole existence of the book that never should have been at all shows.<BR/><BR/>But one could assume that releasing the next book would not take that much time.<BR/><BR/>You said this is not really a defence, but an attempt to explain why it takes so long.<BR/><BR/>But do you really believe this explains why GRRM needs so much time to deliver? Maybe the HBO deal is a blessing that forces him to come to an end. Even at the cost of some quality.<BR/><BR/>I am pretty sure this would be better overall than trying to keep up the standard by stretching the series over even more books and a longer period of time.Longaschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14315739202508784897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-23012376676558787232009-01-29T23:10:00.000+00:002009-01-29T23:10:00.000+00:00Another excellent post on Martin and ADwD. Your ve...Another excellent post on Martin and ADwD. Your very detailed and almost academic charting of the (possible) writing process reminds me a lot of the art historical books I read for work. You're a shoe-in for the authority of all things ASOIAF. *hehe*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7703856341303488608.post-81778853587564915522009-01-29T21:40:00.000+00:002009-01-29T21:40:00.000+00:00Another level-headed piece, Adam. Of course, it o...Another level-headed piece, Adam. Of course, it only has me more eager to hear of a publication date so I can schedule my re-reading of the series.RobBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04014122096561992311noreply@blogger.com