Showing posts with label empire of ash. Show all posts
Showing posts with label empire of ash. Show all posts

Tuesday, 19 July 2022

HBO dishes the dirt on GAME OF THRONES spin-off ideas

In a wide-ranging article at The Hollywood Reporter, insiders at HBO have spoken for the first time about the various attempts to bring a Game of Thrones spin-off to the table.

HBO reached a deal with Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss in 2016 to end the show after eight seasons. Almost immediately HBO began exploring ideas for a spin-off, with an eagerness that surprised industry watchers.

HBO had never made a spin-off show to any of their series before. The closest they had come was around 2005 when a spin-off from The Wire, provisionally called The Hall and revolving around the character of Tommy Carcetti as he became Mayor of Baltimore, had gotten quite far into development before it was canned, and the resulting work was folded into the political storyline in Seasons 4 and 5 of the main show. A few years later HBO bought the rights to remake the BBC TV series I, Claudius and investigated turning it into a spin-off/sequel to its underrated historical drama, Rome, even using the same sets (which were, and still are, standing in a film studio outside Rome) and a similar format. HBO eventually broke their rule by producing two movie extensions to two of their most acclaimed series, Deadwood: The Movie (2019) and The Sopranos: The Many Saints of Newark (2021), but only after the Game of Thrones spin-off train had started moving.

George R.R. Martin himself came up with two ideas: The Tales of Dunk & Egg, based on his novellas about Ser Duncan the Tall and his squire, Egg, as they wandered the Seven Kingdoms about ninety years before the events of the main series. The novellas mix large-scale politics with much smaller-scale, "slice of life" adventure stories. Martin felt the juxtaposition with the vast scale and epic events of Game of Thrones was interesting. HBO agreed, but also felt that maybe adapting those novellas was aiming too small. Martin's other proposal was for a series called The Dance of the Dragons, about a civil war between two branches of the Targaryens when both sides were equipped with dragons. HBO liked that idea better, but felt conversely it was too similar to Game of Thrones itself. HBO, awkwardly, wanted something that captured the epic scale and politics of the original but was not so obviously related to it.

A number of other ideas were discussed, some of them pretty frivolous. One idea about a team of early heroes, including a warrior, a smith, a crone etc, who become the inspiration for the gods of the Seven Kingdoms was shot down pretty quickly. Other proposals were made, including (according to other rumours) for potential sequels to the main series revolving around popular characters, but Martin seemed largely unenthused by any ideas about sequels and these ideas were also limited by actor availability: many of the actors from Thrones, despite loving it, were only too happy to leave the brutal filming schedule behind to pursue other projects.

HBO eventually narrowed things down to five ideas: The Dance of the Dragons, with Carly Wray attached to write; a show about the Doom of Valyria with the alleged title Empire of Ash from Max Borenstein; a show about the warrior-queen Nymeria from Brian Helgeland; a show about the Long Night from Jane Goldman; and a series about Aegon the Conqueror from Rand Ravich and Far Shariat which would have revealed Aegon as a drunken lout (!).

During this development process Carly Wray decided not to pursue the Dance project, apparently feeling she wanted the series to start with the war kicking off whilst Martin wanted a slow-burn opening much like Thrones, with at least a full season preceding the start of the conflict. Bryan Cogman, who had penned some of Thrones' best-received episodes, was brought in to develop the idea further. However, HBO eventually put all of these other projects on hold to pursue the one that stood out to them: the Long Night project.

The show never had a final title, although The Longest Night was Martin's preferred one. Set five thousand years before the main series, the show would have expanded on the creation of the White Walkers and the advent of the Long Night, a generation-lasting winter in which Westeros was almost destroyed by hordes of undead invading from the far north. During this time Westeros is a patchwork quilt of primitive, Bronze Age-esque kingdoms, some so small you could ride across them in a day, and ill-prepared to withstand such an invasion. The show would have had to create human drama out of characters and ideas from the novels which are larger-than-life legends, like Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder.

HBO gave a pilot order and spent a reported $30-35 million on building sets and hiring a cast led by Naomi Watts and John Simm. The pilot episode, entitled Bloodmoon, was shot but HBO started having second thoughts. There'd been a change in leadership at the company and The Longest Night was seen as a gamble, being very different in tone and atmosphere to Thrones. There were also no dragons, and the epic scale may have been somewhat lost with smaller kingdoms and more primitive castles and towns. The Children of the Forest would also be major, ongoing characters, but they had made relatively little impact on the original show. Martin himself also seemed unsure about the project, as he had relatively little background material or notes about this period of Westerosi history, and was not able to readily or quickly answer lore questions from the writers.

More significant, although nobody at HBO has ever said this, is that the final season of Game of Thrones aired around this time and attracted controversial opinions about its ending. Although many aspects of the final season were criticised, the way the White Walkers were very quickly defeated in a single episode was particularly savaged by both fans and critics. Suddenly basing an entire series around the rise of the White Walkers and in which they were primary antagonists didn't seem like a great idea any more.

The Longest Night was cancelled, apparently a huge shock to the creative team who'd felt so confident about the project that they'd been already re-editing the pilot based on feedback and had started breaking the first season.

Almost immediately after this decision was made, HBO decided to go back to basics. They tapped Martin again and agreed that the Dance of Dragons project seemed like a better idea. Martin had already expanded his history of the Dance as part of an entire book about the Targaryens, Fire and Blood, which meant the production team would have hundreds of pages of source material to drawn upon. The dragons and the civil war in Westeros parts of Game of Thrones had been well-received, so doubling down on those elements seemed obvious. HBO and Martin were also able to quickly assemble a creative team who had their full confidence (Bryan Cogman having moved onto a deal at Amazon, acting as a creative consultant on their Lord of the Rings show before developing an original project). Ryan Condal, a friend of Martin's for around a decade and a proven showrunner from Colony (as well as getting a good rep for a Conan the Barbarian proposal he'd been shopping at Amazon), was tapped to develop the project whilst Game of Thrones super-director Miguel Sapochnik was also hired to work on the show (getting Sapochnik again was seen as a coup, as his work on Thrones had made him a hot property and he'd been somewhat reluctant to return).

Since House of the Dragon entered pre-production, HBO has gotten back into the Westeros business in a big way. They are now developing multiple new spin-off projects, including:


  • A fresh take on The Tales of Dunk and Egg from The Secret Life of Walter Mitty writer Steven Conrad.
  • A show about Corlys Velaryon, the Sea Snake, with the working title The Nine Voyages of the Sea Snake. A major character in House of the Dragon (played by Steven Toussaint), this show would depict him as a young man when he embarked on nine "great voyages" to remote corners of the world, including Qarth, fabled Asshai and the Thousand Islands. Rome writer-producer Bruno Heller is still developing this idea.
  •  A show called The Ten Thousand Ships, revolving around Princess Nymeria of Ny Sar, a princess of the Rhoyner who leads her people to safety when her country is destroyed the Valyrians. Their fleet of ships flees across the Summer Sea in search of safety, addressing issues of food, water and internal politics whilst searching for a new home. Think of a fantasy version of Battlestar Galactica. Person of Interest writer Amanda Segel is currently developing this project.
  • An animated show set in the Golden Empire of Yi Ti.
  • A sequel to Game of Thrones revolving around the character of Jon Snow. Actor Kit Harington himself proposed the idea to HBO and Martin, getting them intrigued enough to put the project into development under the very working title Snow.

In addition to these, HBO also mulled over an idea called Flea Bottom, a peasant's eye view of great events from the poor quarter of King's Landing, possibly an expansion of an idea Martin himself mentioned several times called Spear Carriers, which would have adopted an alternative Rosencrantz and Guildenstern-style perspective of major events from minor POV characters. These ideas are currently on hold.

A lot is riding on the success of House of the Dragon, but it has assembled a top cast and crew and the project has Martin's approval. HBO may also be buoyed that despite repeated attempts by rivals, no true successor to Game of Thrones has emerged (Netflix's The Witcher may have come closest) in popular media. And it will be interesting to see if any of the other spin-off ideas make it to the screen.

Tuesday, 18 August 2020

More details emerge about HBO's unmade GAME OF THRONES spin-off shows

Thanks to detective work courtesy of user Zionius via Reddit, more information has come to light about the various spin-off Game of Thrones shows HBO had been working on back in 2017-18.

As we know now, HBO at one point had six Game of Thrones spin-off shows under consideration. They ordered a pilot for one of these shows but then cancelled it - Jane Goldman's The Longest Night (developed under the codename Bloodmoon, likely the name of the individual pilot episode) - and have now greenlit another, Ryan Condal's House of the Dragon, based on an earlier pitch by Bryan Cogman.

The nature of the other four shows has been unclear, although various rumours have surfaced over the years. However, thanks to Zionius analysing material HBO filed with the US copyright office, we now have a better idea.

Spinoff #1 was to be produced by Max Borenstein and Steeplechase Amusements Inc. It was copyrighted on 24 May 2017.

Spinoff #2 was to be produced by Brian Helgeland. It was copyrighted on 6 July 2017.

Spinoff #3 is not shown on the list, but logically must have been copyrighted in July or August 2017 and was to be produced by Carly Wray. 

Spinoff #4 was to be produced by October Lodge Ltd. and was copyrighted on 20 September 2017. Based on UK Company House filings, October Lodge is the production company owned by Jane Goldman/Ross, so this was The Longest Night (aka The Long Night aka Bloodmoon).

Spinoff #5 was to be produced by Bryan Cogman and Randy Mailman Productions, and was copyrighted on 6 April 2018. This show morphed via a seventh pitch (so #5 and #7 are the same thing, effectively) into House of the Dragon, the only one of the shows to get a full season order. We also know now that the production company for House of the Dragon "Bastard Sword." HBO plan to shoot this series next year for airing in 2022.

Spinoff #6 was to be produced by HunterFed and Far Shariat and was copyrighted after 8 February 2018. Far Shariat is an experienced TV producer, often working with Rand Ravich, and they have an overall development deal with HBO at present.

So #4 was The Longest Night and #5 became House of the Dragon. So what were the other shows?

Max Borenstein's show - #1 on this list - was reportedly called Empire of Ash and was set 100 years before the Doom of Valyria, and would have been a sweeping historical epic set in both Valyria itself and in the colonies in Sothoryos across the Summer Sea. Going by (massively unconfirmed) rumour, this show had a lot of development done for it which makes sense given it was the longest in development, but HBO was skittish about it because of the high cost of both the dragons and also depicting a much more fantasy-ish setting, with relatively limited direct connections to Game of Thrones. On the other hand HBO liked the similarities to their own, earlier show Rome. Apparently this idea has been moved to a backburner and maybe brought back into play at a later date (Borenstein is primarily working in film as a writer, so may be available later on).

Helgeland's show - #2 on the list - has never been formally identified. In an evasive interview, Helgeland only confirmed that his show was set in Westeros hundreds of years before GoT itself (he also suggested afterwards, but my information is that no show set "hundreds of years" after GoT was ever seriously considered). It is possible to likely that Helgeland's show was the "Aegon's Conquest" series revolving around the Conquest of Westeros by Aegon the Conqueror and the forging of the Iron Throne. Looking further back in the timeline, it's hard to see other events that may have been of interest.

Carly Wray's show - #3 on the list - has also never been formally identified. In this interview she confirms it's a prequel based in Westeros and is based on an episode in the earlier material. It also sounds like her idea was not as developed as others. It's unclear what it might have been (and runs into the same problem as Helgeland's setting). Assuming one of these two shows is the Conquest show, speculation can thus run rampant over the second, since GRRM has confirmed that neither a Robert's Rebellion or Dunk & Egg series was ever seriously considered (GRRM vetoed both ideas early on).

It should be noted that apparently only two of the shows - the Dance of Dragons and the Conquest - were based on material from the book Fire and Blood. That suggests the remaining Westeros pitch was set before the Conquest but after the Long Night. The only event with dramatic potential for a TV show in this time is Nymeria and the Rhoynar's flight from Essos to Dorne, via a hazardous journey through Sothoryos and the Summer Islands, sort of like a fantasy version of Battlestar Galactica. That could have been intriguing.

Spinoff #6 is an interesting one. It was proposed after all the others and seems to have been floated as an idea not long before The Longest Night was given a pilot order. As of May 2020, it was "still in contention," although the producers have since moved on to HBO's J.J. Abrams project Demimonde.

It'll be interesting to see if these other showrunners ever speak up in future about what their ideas would have been. In the meantime, we still have two years before House of the Dragon launches on HBO. 

Tuesday, 10 July 2018

Details leak on second GAME OF THRONES spin-off show

Last month HBO confirmed it was moving ahead with a pilot script for a Game of Thrones spin-off show based on the Long Night, the ancient war between the First Men and the White Walkers that ended with the construction of the Wall and the founding of the Night's Watch. Jane Goldman has been developing the project (in consultation with George R.R. Martin) and HBO have been happy enough with her work to push it through to the pilot stage. We're now hearing that the pilot will shoot in October and November - nine years exactly after the pilot shoot for Game of Thrones itself - with a view to the first season shooting next year and airing in 2020, mirroring the GoT development process.

Ted Nasmith's depiction of Valyria, from The World of Ice and Fire.

There are also now rumours spreading that HBO is leaning towards greenlighting a second pilot, this time set around the Doom of Valyria. This is the project that Max Borenstein (Godzilla, Skull Island) has been working on for some time and has the working title Empire of Ash. According to the reports, HBO and Borenstein - presumably also in close consultation with George R.R. Martin - have developed a significant amount of worldbuilding for this project, with a five-season, 10-episodes-per-season story arc worked out in some detail which presumably culminates in the Doom and its aftermath.

According to the report, the story will be predominantly set in Valyria and its colonies in Sothoryos, and will feature a much more diverse cast of characters in terms of religion and ethnicity. The story will follow several characters with House Targaryen very much a minor background faction, but which will presumably become higher in profile later on. According to the reports Aenar Targaryen and his daughter Daenys the Dreamer will play a role, which suggests this will be multi-generational story, spanning the century between Aenar's departure for Dragonstone and the Doom itself. In this manner the show sounds highly reminiscent of HBO's epic series Rome (2004-07), except set in a fictional setting.


Is this story plausible? Yes, of the five spin-off ideas HBO originally commissioned, I understand that three are still in serious play, including both a Long Night and Doom of Valyria series. The third, which may be the Dance of Dragons, may actually be dependent on how far they go down the Doom of Valyria route, as both would be dragon-heavy story with political intrigue; Empire of Ash may be more tempting as it's a whole new story whilst the Dance's storyline will be presented in full in Fire and Blood, so I suspect the Dance project would move onto the backburner if Empire moves forward (in fact, the suggestion that HBO are actually considering two projects indicates this may have already happened).

The reasons why Empire of Ash has not been formally greenlit yet appear to be myriad: HBO want some more space from The Long Night's announcement before confirming this project and they have also been courting Miguel Sapochnik to direct the pilot. However, Sapochnik has also reportedly been approached by Netflix to direct possibly multiple episodes of the first season of The Witcher, which is now in formal pre-production and casting, with a view to shooting at the end of this year or the start of next, potentially clashing with the Empire of Ash pilot.

Interesting to get more news on this as it develops.